Two phases of election are done. What is the run rate of your team?
The first two phases had a significant focus on Tamil Nadu and Kerala. We have been active for a long time in this area but that has not translated (to seats) in the past. We can sense a better performance this time. Honestly, the expectation is we will pick up some seats there.
What’s your number for BJP after the first two phases?
There is a scorer out there. I can only share with you the sentiment. In Tamil Nadu, as also in Kerala, Karnataka and Telangana, states where I have been, the dynamic is moving in our favour.
Congress seems to be taking shape in the South. Your comments.Well, there isn’t much of a Congress in Tamil Nadu, nor in Andhra Pradesh. So, that’s two states out of five. Quite honestly, to me, they look like grasping at straws to position themselves as something bigger than they are.How do you respond to US President Joe Biden’s remark that countries like India are xenophobic, which is why the economy is faltering?
First of all, our economy is not faltering. India has always been a very unique country. It’s a society which has been very open. Different people from different societies come to India. That’s why we have the CAA, to open up doors for people who are in trouble. I think we should be open to people who have the need to come to India, who have a claim to come to India.
Do you think foreign countries are trying to influence or interfere in Indian elections?
A country could mean a government, Parliament, media, intelligence. So, I don’t think that’s the right question or the right answer. I think it’s as plain as the nose on my face that there are self-proclaimed people with different interests. There are people who publicly said millions of Muslims will lose their citizenship because of CAA. Why are they not being held to account? Nobody has lost citizenship. There are people who said you must not do anything to disturb demonstrations even if it inconveniences the public, blocks roads. How are they handling it when it comes to their own? As members of the Indian press, you all will be happy to know your rank (in the recently released Press Freedom Index by RSF). I think the number is 159. I mean these are political hit jobs. Let’s stop pretending. I’m not implying or hinting something. I am calling it out. We got a lot of lectures about how to deal with public every time there’s an agitation in India. I invite you to see the television pictures today on the screen. What they preach, what they practice, what is their agenda, what is their objectivity, or lack of it?
How do you respond to reports of alleged Indian involvement in the killing of wanted terrorists in Pakistan and other countries?
Terrorists are there in large numbers in Pakistan, so statistically, things will happen to them. It’s an industry they have created. People have been warning Pakistan for a long time. Forget India. Hillary Clinton very publicly warned Pakistan. If you have a cast of characters like this, I guess some things are a natural outcome of that.
But when PM says ghar mein ghuske marenge…
To maara na, Uri ke baad maara, Balakot mein maara
And then these killings happen in Pakistan, Canada and the case in US?
Look, two and two and two doesn’t make 222. Somebody says something happened in Pakistan. May have happened. Who did it? Who knows. Somebody else is saying something could have happened or planned to happen in some other country. Pakistan is Pakistan, other countries are other countries.
What about anti-India gangs in Canada and pending extradition requests?
That is a concern to us. In fact, it’s very much a part of our conversations, where I would confess, I have not been very successful. We have repeatedly told Canada that you, for some reason, seem to be very open about providing a haven to organised crime.
Will we ever see the ghar wapsi of economic offenders like Vijay Mallya and others?
We expect it, we demand it. But frankly, you are asking the wrong government. It’s the government in the other country which should answer why they have not moved. We will continue to press them to get these people back, make them answerable.
When absolute majority is enough for BJP why set a target of 400 paar?
When you sat for an exam, did you say why should I get 80%, I am happy with 60%. Everybody wants to do better. A resounding victory will strengthen the government. In 2014, BJP was in the 200s, in 2019 it was in 300s. So, after 2 and 3 comes 4.
How big is the challenge in Karnataka?
The Karnataka government has made rash promises with no consideration for budgetary consequences. Frankly, many of the promises either cannot be kept or are being kept at the cost of basic government services. The water problem is terrible. We are seeing criminalisation of politics by the Congress. But at the end of the day, we believe the voter will take a considered call.
Do you regret the alliance with JDS after the Prajwal Revanna case?
All I can say is, the law will take its course in the matter. I don’t think anybody has any doubt on this.
Why did you not contest the LS polls?
The leadership felt that someone like me is best used across the country. I have just come out of Telangana, Karnataka, Kerala, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Mizoram. I’m heading for Odisha, West Bengal, Maharashtra and Punjab. I wouldn’t be able to do this if I were focused on a single constituency. You gave an analogy of cricket. I think everybody in a team has a role.
What would you say are the top three ways in which India’s foreign policy has changed in the last 10 years?
One, it has changed in the sense of realism. Today, we are clearly focused on what is good for India. This is in contrast to an earlier left-wing liberal belief that there is a bigger cause out there, which causes our national interest to take second place. We are nationalistic. That really, I think, is the fundamental difference. A subset of that is we are also not vote-bank driven. Previously, that was a consideration, particularly with respect to Israel.
There’s a very wrong assumption that governments change but foreign policies don’t. This is a fraud perpetrated by the previous guy saying please keep our foreign policy because you’re not supposed to change it. It will change because a different party with a different vichardhara, under a different set of assumptions and priorities, has come to power. Take, for example, the historical Left wing reservations about dealing with the United States. I think that changed very sharply after 2014.
A second example would be China. There was a belief that on a whole lot of issues we can make common cause. My friend Jairam Ramesh took it to a philosophical degree with Chindia, which is an updated form of Panchsheel. The idea is the same, which is that fundamentally we have convergence with China. Previous Indian governments have even put Chinese interests ahead of our own. Today, the answer is no, we will not let them dictate the play. There will be costs and consequences.
And finally, on Israel. It’s a natural partner. But we were afraid to be seen in public. It took us till 1992 to establish an embassy and 2017 for an Indian Prime Minister to go there. So, to me, those are one set of examples. The other is, there is a much stronger connect today between economic requirements of the country and foreign policy. When we look at our partners, we think how that relationship can help drive economic growth. And the third difference is civilisation and culture. We are standing up for cultural India, and we think previous governments didn’t do that.
But you too have felt the need to nuance your position on Israeli actions in Gaza?
Let’s look at our Israel position. The October 7 attack, is it terrorism or not? The Congress party has a problem saying it is terrorism. They choke when it comes to that. You saw the waffling which happened. We have no problem. If somebody has been a victim of terrorism, do they have a right to respond? Anybody undertaking action has to be careful about civilian casualties. I mean, I would say this even to our own forces, if we are ever in that situation, which I know hopefully, we will not. And then, there is the two-state solution. We would support it not for vote bank considerations, but because that is the sensible thing to do for stability in that vital part of the world. This is our geopolitical, geostrategic assessment.
In the light of PM’s recent remarks on China, should one expect a nuanced shift post-elections allowing for more investments?
Essentially in the interview (to Newsweek), the prime minister said the relations are abnormal. And, we want to see normalcy, which can only happen if there’s peace and tranquillity on the border. I don’t think the PM said anything which was a departure from our consistent policy. I don’t see any reason why we should change from that. If there is no peace and tranquillity on the border, how can you have workable relations with any neighbour?
On the economic issue, there are two parts. First is straightforward economics where you have a country whose manufacturing practices have put the rest of the world at a disadvantage. And, we are entirely within our rights to protect the interests of our manufacturers, particularly our SMEs, and our labour and working classes.
I get a lot of lectures about why are you being protectionist in this globalised world? But I will take whatever defensive measures I have to in the interest of the working class whose jobs are at stake. People who give this lecture are not connected with the real economy, the society. As someone who spends a lot of time with SMEs, who has lived in Noida for most of my life, I can tell you how strong that sense of resentment is today about dumping of goods from China. We will do what it takes.
Second are the sensitive sectors. Every country today has the right to manage sensitive sectors in consonance with national security. I cannot, in the name of open economy, open up my national security to work with a country which is laying claim on my territory. Both our economic and national security are at stake.
On Apple sourcing raw material from China?
Look at Apple’s performance. They’re doing splendidly. I assure you that whether it was Apple or anybody else in a similar situation, we’re not impractical people. Don’t get me wrong. We want to see global companies come to India. If global companies have prior vendors and supply chains, we are not impervious. Nobody has said that Chinese companies cannot come to India. On the contrary, we only said we will examine, scrutinise, try to understand who is coming here for what. I would actually point to Apple as a case which has had a good experience in India, not a difficult one.
Are the Five-Eyes ‘targeting’ India?
I don’t have a conspiracy view of the world. I’m a liberal, understanding, easy going guy. I don’t buy this view that foreign governments are out to get us. There are people with strong ideological proclivities who apparently have issues with us both as a political party and as a government.
Are there differences or problems with some of our partner countries? I think there are. Canada is one example. In which country do you see posters of foreign leaders and accredited ambassadors with ‘wanted’ on it. Then, there’s the attack on the Indian High Commission in London. Somebody entered the premises, took down the flag. I asked my British counterpart, what would you do if this had happened to you? If your high commission was affected, your flag was taken down, if your security was breached. Would you be giving me the same answer? Or, I had an arson attack on my consulate in San Francisco. Imagine the roles were reversed. I, at least, take protection of diplomats in this country more seriously.
Would Donald Trump be India’s preferred candidate in the US elections?
Our preferred partner in the United States is the President of the United States, whoever he or she may be. And that’s not even a Trump issue. I would go back to Bill Clinton, then Bush, Obama, Trump and then Biden. Five American presidents, each one completely unlike any of the others from very different positions in the American political spectrum. But we have shown the ability to get along with all of them.
Are Republicans seen to be more favourable to India?
I would not agree because we’ve had a great working relationship with Biden. If you look at it, the Quad has grown from strength to strength. The push in the semiconductor industry at a time when this is the most sensitive industry, where countries are very, very careful about who has these capabilities. And the US is very comfortable partnering with India.
Would you say your vichardhara on Nehru’s foreign policy approach has changed from when you were an IFS officer to now when you are minister?
My thoughts on Nehru have not changed. The foreign policy in which Nehru had a predominant role for the first 18 years of our existence, and assumptions which his successors carried forward, had some significant shortcomings, flaws and errors of judgement. I don’t think I needed to join the BJP or retire from service to have these views. It was the Indian Foreign Service, not Nehru’s foreign service. Let’s be very clear on that. Most of us who, for example, dealt with China felt that there was a fundamental misreading of China in the 1950s, the whole Panchsheel era. Or, if I go back even earlier, and I’ve actually written about the Nehru-Patel debate on how to handle China. We didn’t need to be out of the government to understand the truth of what was staring us in the face. It stared the nation in the face in 1962. Please read Nehru’s letter to Kennedy after Bomdi La fell and tell me how you feel about that. How could our country have been brought down to such a situation where you’re begging somebody? So, do not confuse it in the name of politics. It should not be that we have no judgement, no evaluation of anything in our history. Are we then blind followers of what happened?
Why did you join politics?
The reason I joined politics was because I felt that PM Modi was a once in a lifetime leader, that here is a person with very strong leadership qualities and a big ambition for the country.
For me, that was a very powerful motivator. I’ve got along very well with some of the previous PMs but I don’t think anybody else would have motivated me to join politics. Because at the end of the day, to me, the big issue even for this election, is we are heading for a very difficult world. Just look around. Be it Gaza, the Red Sea, Arabian Sea, our borders, South China Sea, US China polarisation, climate change…. this is almost like a storm building up. And, at this time, I think it’s absolutely vital that we have safe, experienced, courageous set of hands on the tiller. Because, a lot of countries are getting buffeted.
